Yates gives views on dissidents

There are currently 15 ongoing PSNI investigations into shootings by an organisation called Republican Action Against Drugs (RAAD).

Here, PSNI Area Commander, Chris Yates, answers the Sentinel's questions on the upsurge in dissident republican activity in the city.

Where on the list of priorities to tackle in G District is dissident republicanism?

The reality is dissident republicans in this city pose a very real threat to me and my officers. We have seen their activities over the last week or so with the car bomb in Newry. This is particularly dangerous group of individuals, the same group that planted the bomb in Omagh that killed 29 people - so we can't underestimate the seriousness of them. And, unfortunately that threat extends in this city not only to police officers but their families too.

So, when you talk about priorities it is always difficult to assess. The reality is that as a police commander here, I'll have about 60 different priorities levelled at me from both area policing plans, to local policing plans to performance indicators. But, the number one priority for me is to protect life and we take this very seriously indeed.

What mechanisms are in place to deal with dissidents?

How many of these are intelligence led and to what extent do they involve security organisations outside the PSNI?

We have already discussed that dissident republicans pose a substantial threat to us and our responses are both overt and covert. I'm not particularly comfortable talking about either to be honest. Suffice to say that we put an enormous amount of time and effort into frustrating their activities and into trying to catch them. Over and above that I can't really say too much at all.

How effective has the use of stop and search powers been?

It's been a very sensitive issue. People make their feelings on stop and search known to me all the time. I'm sure you are aware of the recent vote at the DPP meeting, but the reality is when you talk about the effectiveness of a particular tactic, the critics of stop and search would apply fairly blunt measures in as much how many people have been arrested. When they say that you have conducted so many thousand searches and only made 39 arrests - they are missing the point.

The whole point of stop and search is to disrupt. I think the best way to illustrate this in terms of a scenario is: an individual is in a pub tonight and he overhears a conversation that RAAD is going to go to a certain area and conduct a shooting, and that person is so concerned by what they have heard they lift a telephone and phone Crimestoppers, and that's the intelligence that drops onto my desk - that RAAD are going to go a specific area and carry out a shooting.

I am duty bound to take measures and try to protect life and I am duty bound to put resources into that area. The most effective way to deal with that is stop and search, targeted stop and search by identifying people who we may think are involved in that type of activity. It's one of those difficulties of how do you measure something that you can't see and you don't know.

The reality is that, I can put my hand on my heart here and say that I know stop and search in this city has prevented attacks.

The Sentinel has information that regarding the attack on the owner of Red Star premises, the gunman left cartridges behind. We understand that these shells belonged to a new Glock pistol of Eastern European origin. In terms of ballistics and forensics, where has this left the PSNI in terms of RAAD related arrests?

The shooting of Mr Coyle (proprietor of Red Star) is an ongoing investigation - there are fifteen or so similar investigations ongoing at this moment in time - therefore I am not going to say anything that in anyway undermines or jeopardises enquiries. There are a number of lines of enquiry, ballistics being one of them, that are being looked at. And, there is a fairly substantial amount of forensic evidence that is at the lab that is being processed. So, I need to be very, very careful around commenting on any specific information.

Did the fact that a lone gunman on a motorcycle carried out the Red Star attack right in the heart of the city centre indicate a growth in confidence by RAAD? If so how can this be combated?

I wouldn't necessarily say it's a growth in confidence. You know they are operating in an area where they feel comfortable - operating in an area where they get to pick and choose when they will mount their attacks. Clearly had we been in that area in any sort of numbers at all the attack would not have happened. Does it show an increase in confidence? I don't think so. Of particular interest to me was the fact that afterwards we saw a demonstration with placards saying 'not in my name'. This to me was the most interesting part of the whole incident. The whole community are starting to say, enough is enough.

From a PSNI point of view, how much support do you think dissident republicanism, either from RAAD or the Real IRA (RIRA), actually has in this city?

Let's deal with RAAD first. Is there wide spread support? No. Is there tacit acceptance for their actions in certain areas of this city? Yes. But, there is also a great deal of fear and intimidation caught up in that as well. I think the vast majority of like minded people in this city would say 'no, we don't want this, this a throw back to a time gone by.'

But, clearly people do not feel confident enough to come forward and give us the information we would need to arrest and prosecute. I understand that - that this is a big ask for people in that area to do that. As said, the demonstration after Mr Coyle's shooting is light at the end of the tunnel. These are the first steps of the community saying, ' we have had enough of this.'

When you come to the RIRA - is there wide spread support for what they are doing? I would say not. I would evidence that by the commentary that has come through after Mr (Kieran) Doherty's shooting, including the number of people from the republican community that have come out and condemned it.

I mean, who wants this? Realistically speaking, who wants it? This was a brutal execution - it's the only way to describe it. Who would support that sort of thing?

What is your opinion of media coverage of recent attacks?

What I can say with confidence is this. That any journalist has a duty to investigate. Any journalist has a duty to ask those awkward questions about RAAD, like 'Where's your mandate?', 'Who wants this?', 'Why are you doing this?'. I think any journalist worth their salt has to ask those questions. If journalists don't ask those awkward questions then they run into the realms of becoming a propaganda machine for these organisations and potentially give these organisations a position within the community that they simply do not deserve. So, I understand that journalists and editors have a responsibility to sell newspapers, but they also have a responsibility to ask those awkward questions.

Are there adequate police resources to tackle all the problems faced by the PSNI in this command area?

I would have a fairly peculiar view of that, because as a police officer the more police you give me, the more I can do. The reality is - does RAAD's and RIRA's activities affect us? Yes they do. Do we still manage to deliver a day-to-day policing service? Yes we do. And, the reality is that our crime figures this year, coming towards the end of our financial year, are very healthy indeed. Does RAAD have a major effect on what I would call day-to day policing? No, it hasn't.

Does it have an effect at all? Yes, of course it has.

The reality is, we always do more with more resources. I'm actually fairly comfortable with the position I am in and my organisation is moving towards giving me substantial additional resources because of the threat we face in the particular area. Are we still able to deliver a day-to-day policing service in this city? Absolutely.

Are the PSNI equipped to deal with a sustained republican campaign should the situation change rapidly?

The key to this is in the question. Quite a sizeable majority of my officers at Strand Road, are only PSNI officers. A lot of the experience we would have had from the previous terror campaign have left the organisation, and has undoubtedly left skills gaps. That's something we are moving towards putting right at this moment in time. All of the officers here have been away on a tactical patrolling course. Two or three years ago, that would have been unnecessary. In today's climate it is very, very necessary. It's about them learning skills that are fairly alien to them. We have had issues around Visible Checkpoint Patrols (VCP's) we have done. My officers are not used to doing VCPs. At times when they have put vehicle checkpoints in the city, quite necessarily so, they have created traffic chaos because they don't have the guile and craft they need to do that more effectively. But, they are learning and learning quickly. This is something that requires constant work, it requires feedback from the community. When we get it wrong, nobody has been shy in coming forward and saying look 'you didn't get that exactly right'.

These are not skills that you simply expect people to pick up off the shelf and do. These are all skills - including counter terrorism, that we are having to learn all over again.

What then is the estimated catch-up time then, for all these skills to be in place, should a concerted republican campaign start up again?

To be honest with you, when you talk about catch-up and you look back in the city in the past two years and the shooting of Jim Doherty, we have caught up. The reality is that that came as a bolt out of the blue for all of us. And, we have spent an awful lot of time bringing ourselves up to speed with a number of counter terrorism areas. So, are we ready for the campaign to increase? Well, I hope to God it doesn't - I really hope to God it doesn't. What we have seen over the past couple of weeks would cause me real concern, with the bombing of the court house in Newry, the mortar attack in Keady and most recently the shooting of Kieran Doherty.

With regard to the amnesty that RAAD said they would give to drug dealers for recinding their activities- have the PSNI any information to the effect that money gathered by alleged drug dealers has changed hands between them and RAAD?

This is exactly the type of question that RAAD should be asked. There are loose ends there. Some people have been abducted and not shot, others have been shot without being abducted and there are people in the community that have remained untouched. And those are questions that should be asked, quite rightly, of RAAD. Why is this happening? What is your motivation? What is going on?

Let's be brutally honest about it, drug dealing is a cash rich industry. Where's the money? If you are seizing drugs, and dealing with drug dealers, where's the money?

Therefore, is there any information about where this money is? Or, for example is there is any information about where the drugs are going after RAAD seize them? Have any of these drugs resurfaced back into the community as far as the PSNI are aware?

No. But, clearly if I became aware of that, I would not be shy of putting that into the media.

Why do you think this city has become a relative stronghold for dissident republicanism?

I'm probably not the right person to ask that. As an Englishman that wasn't here during the troubles, you know, I don't know the historical context to why that is. I would take issue with the 'stronghold' aspect. We have local dissident republicans who are very active, there's no doubt about that, but when you look at what's been happening elsewhere we are not at that same level. The first and main incident for us was the shooting of Jim Doherty two years ago.

So, I can't put this within the right historical context as why there is a pocket of dissident republicanism in this city. I don't know.

Is there any evidence that the calls from mainstream republicans to pass on information is genuine?

Are more of the general public passing on information about these incidents to the PSNI?

Do I think that appeal is genuine? Absolutely I do. I am entirely convinced that they (mainstream republicans) are genuine in their calls to pass on information.

From the general public we are getting increasing amounts of information being passed on - specifically about drug dealing. There are certain offences, or offence types, that will prick people's consciences. We saw this initially in this city going back about three years with a serious sexual offence, when people who previously wouldn't have contacted us at all, gave us details and helped identify the suspects, that resulted in arrests and prosecutions.

We are also seeing an increase of information about drug dealing and that's coming to us from all over the city. We have arrested twice the number this year for drug dealing as we did last year and seized substantial quantities of drugs and substantial amounts of cash, primarily based on information coming from the public. This is quite interesting on a number of levels. Is this because of RAAD? Are people saying, 'no, this has to go to the police because we don't want RAAD to deal with them'? Is it because of the work we've done with community engagement? Is it because of the work done with the DPP's, with their highlighting of the drugs issue and making that a local priority? I don't know. The answer probably lies somewhere between all three of four reasons. But, certainly there has been an increase of information flowing to us on these key crime types.